Interview with PhD Fritjof Capra
edited by Dr.ssa Alessandra Bracci*
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This we know. The earth does not belong to man; man belongs to the earth.
This we know. All things are connected like the blood which unites one family.
All things are connected. Whatever befalls the earth befalls the sons of the earth.
Man did not weave the Web of Life; he is merely a strand in it. Whatever he does to the Web, he does to himself.
Ted Perry, inspired by the Indian chief Seattle
These poetics words open one of the many wonderful texts by Prof. Fritjof Capra with whom it is a privilege to be able to start a dialogue with our school within the project "The Web of Life" whose title takes its inspiration from his own words.
Prof. Fritjof Capra, a well-known physicist and systems theory scholar, is the founder and director of the Center for Ecological Literacy in Berkeley, California, and has published internationally renowned works. Since his first book The Tao of Physics, written in 1975, he has highlighted the transition from a mechanistic and reductionist worldview to a systemic and ecological one. A real paradigm shift capable of generating radical changes in all fields of scientific knowledge and society. A renewed conception of the human being that is not opposed to Nature but is an integral part of it, overcoming the traditional separation between mind and body. By accepting to be an integral part of Nature, man is somehow pushed to overcome a position of dominance and exploitation of other forms of life, and of the ecosystem as a whole, to assume an attitude of responsibility towards Nature itself, a responsibility that also becomes pragmatic "taking care" of the environment of which he is a precious guest, but not a ruthless master.
Going beyond the tendency to explain events according to a logic of cause and effect that excludes any "complexity", at the forefront of contemporary science the universe is no longer seen as a machine made of "elementary bricks", but rather characterized by an inseparable network of relationships. The emergence of systemic science comes from the simultaneous convergence of developments in physics, mathematics, biology, sociology, computer science, economics, which at various levels and with different modes of interpretation, have come to propose a new way of thinking, no longer in terms of separate conclusions but in terms of connections, relationships and global contexts. If the web of Life is made up of networks of connections, and if man - with his cultural and humanistic productions - belongs to these networks, the knowledge of the nodes through which the connections are established implies such a total immersion of man in the web of Life as to determine a profound change in his very "being in the world", such as to transform him into an ecological man. Therefore, his own evolution can no longer be seen as a competitive struggle for existence, but as a cooperative dance in which creativity becomes the driving force. Within this "dance" of Life, the human being, who on the one hand with his physiology is in contact with the cognitive worlds of other living beings, on the other, with language and abstract and symbolic concepts, builds a world inaccessible to other living species, his language becomes articulated to build a new world, that of collective consciousness.
In this sense, ecobiopsychology, in the panorama of the sciences of complexity, contributes by proposing a network model that links the world of Nature and the most sophisticated and amplified aspects of human cultural productions, tying together very different areas that may appear contradictory. Its operating mode is to investigate the territory of the personal unconscious and even more that of the collective unconscious, to highlight the common traits or more significant in relation to the natural world. It is in fact in the collective unconscious that ecobiopsychology traces that dimension of the continuum according to which the phenomena of the real world express their mental and cognitive occurrence. The autopoiesis of the school of Santiago came to the innovative conclusion that every living system expresses a cognitive moment, but forgot to emphasize how this cognitive moment is unconscious of the living organism, that only man with his self-awareness and capacity for reflection can begin to make explicit. Therefore, all living organisms are linked together by unconscious cognitive networks that man, equipped with awareness, can begin to know in their meaning by being able to "translate" the unconscious language of living organisms in terms of language understandable to consciousness.
"Everything in my life had prepared me for this moment". Do you agree with that? What is the question your research is based on? What is at the heart of your mission? How did you discover your vocation?
I was trained as a physicist and spent twenty years doing research in theoretical high energy physics. Early on, I became interested in the philosophical implications of the conceptual revolution that took place in modern physics — a change from the mechanistic worldview of Descartes and Newton to a systemic and ecological view. In the early 1970s I began to explore these implications, publishing my findings in a series of books. My research and writing since that time has involved explorations of many fields of knowledge in a meandering process with many tangential pursuits, but always with an explicit systemic perspective. Looking back on these explorations now, I can see that they amounted to a systematic investigation of a central theme: the fundamental change of worldview, or change of paradigms, that is now occurring in science and in society; the unfolding of a new vision of reality, and the social and political implications of this cultural transformation.
The Corona virus is a pandemic going further into the health crisis although critical and extended it may be at a global level. It is a pandemic having its roots in a world where the actual and dominant “reductionism” typical of our economic, political and educative systems ignores limits of the real biological capacity of our planet exploiting in a capricious and prodigal way the vital resources, while using still insufficiently, the human capacities. What is your opinion about that?
In my view, the coronavirus must be seen as a biological response of Gaia, our living planet, to the ecological and social emergency humanity has brought upon itself. It arose from an ecological imbalance and has dramatic consequences because of social and economic imbalances.
Massive intrusions into ecosystems around the world have fragmented these systems and have fractured the web of life. One of the many consequences of these destructive actions was that viruses, which had lived in symbiosis with certain animal species, jumped from those species to humans, where they were highly toxic or deadly.
Now, when you look at the spread of COVID-19, it is evident that population density is the key variable; and population density is often a consequence of excessive profit maximizing — whether on giant cruise ships and in other forms of mass tourism, in giant meat-packing factories, or in crowded living situations caused by social and economic inequality. During a pandemic like COVID-19, social justice is no longer a political issue of left versus right; it becomes an issue of life and death.
When the pandemic spread around the world, one country after another went into lockdown. As a consequence, transportation of people and goods was radically reduced, businesses closed, and unemployment soared. The worldwide health crisis has gone hand in hand with a worldwide economic crisis.
However, from a planetary ecological perspective there have also been many positive consequences. As automobile traffic and industrial activities decreased dramatically, the pollution of major cities around the world suddenly disappeared, and we are once again enjoying clear skies and clean air. Wildlife is flourishing around the world in ecosystems undisturbed by humans. The coronavirus has already been more effective in reducing CO2 emissions and slowing down climate breakdown than all the world’s policy initiatives combined.
This does not mean that we want to continue in the current situation. The current environmental regeneration has been the result of radically reduced human activities. The same positive effects could be achieved by radically changing our human activities. The world’s COVID-19 response has shown us what is possible when people realize that their lives are at stake. Will we have the wisdom and the political will to apply this lesson to the climate crisis, economic inequality, and other critical global problems?
Einstein recalled how he imagined chasing after a beam of light and that the thought experiment had played a memorable role in his development of special relativity. What is the role of imagination in the creation of new scenario on future?
Imagination is critical, in my view. Only when we can imagine a desired goal we will have the motivation to reach it and to work on detailed strategies. It is not a coincidence, that one of the greatest inspirations for social-change movements around the world has been John Lennon’s song Imagine. It gives us a poetic vision of a just and peaceful world:
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people living life in peace…
Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people sharing all the world…
In your book The Systems View of Life you describe the "vital roots " dimension of spirituality as an experience of unity that opens to a full awareness that has deep in the body and at the same time subtle connections with the entire Web of Life. How do you consider, in the context of this process of transformation of consciousness, the role of the body, the personal unconscious (as a container of the vicissitudes of the ego) and the collective unconscious as the "place" of action of archetypes and sediment of all the experiences lived by humanity and source of creative potential? If nowadays psychologists and psychotherapists accept the reality of the unconscious and if neuroscientists confirm this reality by finding it in neuronal connections, could we think that the dimension of the "unconscious" goes further synaptic connections to extend to DNA or, as quantum physicists say, up to the in-formations of the Cosmic Source of the Zero Point Field or Akashic Field?
Spiritual experience, in my view, is an experience of aliveness of mind and body as a unity. This is consistent with the systems view of life, which identifies cognition (the process of knowing) with the very process of life, and understands consciousness as a special kind of cognitive process that emerges when cognition reaches a level of complexity that requires a brain and higher nervous system. In this view, the relationship between mind (or cognition) and body is one between process and structure. This is a radically new and very recent understanding of mind and consciousness, which will have far-reaching scientific and philosophical implications. As far as I know, possible connections with C.G. Jung’s idea of a collective unconscious and other esoteric ideas have not yet been explored.
“Be the change” can be on one side an exciting concept rich of potential, but on the other an extremely touching one dealing with profound fears. If the transformation of the totality implies an inner change on a scale many have not yet experimented, are we really ready for such a change? Which are the capacities and the knowledge that at individual and collective level, are necessary to develop and strengthen to contribute to a more authentic comprehension of life and to discover who we really are and what we wish to become as a society?
The new systemic understanding of life will be critical to solve the major problems of our time, because they are systemic problems — all interconnected and interdependent — and they need corresponding systemic solutions. This requires a profound change of concepts and ideas, and also a profound change of values — a kind of learning known as transformative learning. In my experience, the most powerful way to experience such transformative learning is through the experience of community. When you discuss systemic interconnectedness within a learning community, you experience human interconnectedness at the same time, and this is when transformative learning takes place most effectively.
The change able to make the difference occurs in the depth of our hearts. According to you, how much is that true? How is this process possible?
I fully agree that change to make a difference occurs “in the depth of our hearts.” Throughout the ages, the human heart has been a symbol emotional life, a key metaphor for a variety of emotions — love, compassion, courage, emotional depth, and so on. These emotions are an essential part of the transformative learning we need in order to face the challenges of our time. As I have mentioned, the creation and nurturing of learning communities is an ideal path toward transformative learning. This is what I have been engaged in for the past five years, during which I have taught an online course on the systems view of life. Known as “Capra Course” (www.capracourse.net), it now has alumni network of over 1800 in 85 countries around the world. With this network I am building a global community of systemic thinkers and activists.
Bibliography
Capra F., website: https://www.capracourse.net/; https://www.fritjofcapra.net/
Capra F., (2010). The Tao of Physics. Boulder: Shambhala
Capra F., (1984). The Turning Point: Science, Society, and the Rising Culture. New York: Bantam
Capra F., (1997). The Web of Life: A New Scientific Understanding of Living Systems. New York: HarperCollins
Capra F., (2008). The Science of Leonardo: inside the Mind of the Great Genius of the Renaissance. New York: Anchor
Capra F., Luisi P.L., (2014). The Systems View of Life. A Unifying Vision. Cambridge University Press
*Dr.ssa Alessandra Bracci - Manager at an automotive multinational company and winner of national and international prizes in the marketing field. Editor-in-chief of the ANEB magazine MATERIA PRIMA - Magazine of Ecobiopsychological Psychosomatics. Author of scientific publications.
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